Lisa: Good morning Minki! This is Lisa, founder and sauce artist at Pestogrino in Atlanta, Georgia, reporting live! Just wanted to let you know I think it would be awesome if you did a podcast around the topic of millennials and barriers to owning assets. This was inspired by a kind of a mean tweet I saw:

I know you'll do a stellar job. Just keep up the fresh tone that you have and the way you are demystifying a lot of these issues around money. Keep up the great work. Bye Minki!

Minki: Woa, Lisa! Thank you so much for calling in with your question and kind words. You’re our first caller! Woohoo!

And what an awesome question - how do we go beyond living paycheck to paycheck? I know this is a concern many of us WINers are struggling with. For you to address this, you need to juggle two balls in the air. One, is the importance of saving and managing well the money you are currently earning. But there will come a time when you just can’t cut your expenses anymore. What is missing is the other piece of the puzzle, actively increasing your top line – one of which is getting paid your fair worth.

So today, we have Allegra, salary negotiation super coach for women, and her gold nugget advice.

Hi Allegra, welcome to MoneyBites! Should we start off with an introduction?

Allegra: Sure. My name is Allegra. I am the head of marketing and partnerships at a new modern financial planning startup called the Financial Gym. I am also a career coach and salary negotiation coach, specifically helping women get a pay rise at their current jobs or negotiate more in their next jobs.

I also have a “personal why”. My personal why is to help a 100,000 women believe and achieve their full value potential. A personal why is by Simon Sinek. He talks about the golden “Why?” He's got one of the best Ted talks and it's really interesting. He says all these companies have missions, why shouldn't people have missions? And I really agree. So that is my personal mission and why.

Minki: Wow, that's pretty awesome. I'm definitely going to look that up. 

So I'm super excited about today. When I met with you, the point where my eyes popped open was when you said a statistic that women live longer but we earn less over the course of our lifetime compared to men. Could we start off with that?

Allegra: Sure. Women on average live 7-11 years longer than men and we earn less than them throughout the course of our careers. So it takes us about 11 years to catch up with them. It's just a crazy situation where we are behind when it comes to earning and yet we have a longer life to provide for ourselves. So there are some odds against us and a lot of times there is a gender pay gap. It's not expected to be absolved until 2085. So that's really why I do what I do because I want to close it much faster than that.

We can't expect that to come from the employer’s side. We have to do it ourselves. It shouldn't come from the employer’s side, honestly, because their goal is to make money. This is business and their responsibility is to their shareholders or the owners of that business and our responsibility is to ourselves.

Minki: A few reasons why women need to be very intentional and active about seeing what their top line is?

Allegra: Exactly. We’re our biggest advocates. And we're already in sales so we need to make sure we're selling ourselves for our full value. You know our jobs are basically just an exchange. So we go to work and deliver work product and our employer gives us salary or some sort of compensation for doing that. And I think oftentimes people, well women in particular, find that the employer is doing such good for them by giving them money. But I always have to remind them that they're only giving you money because of what work you're generating for them. So we should always be earning our highest value potential.

I do think that we lose track of that because we're such caretakers. So we want to take care of the job and the company and we're very grateful for it. I love that women are grateful. That's amazing. But at the end of the day that company is not going to be with you in retirement. So you really have to focus on yourself and as you said the top line.

Minki: I think one of the biggest hurdles for women in asking for a bigger top line, for myself included, is sort of the assumption that if I do my job right, and I take care of my team and my work, than the company, my employer, or my boss will recognize me and do just by me.

Allegra: I love that you said that because there truly is a whole, “if I do right by them, they'll do right by me” mentality that is often in women. But this is really an illusion, because it's not their job to do right by you. As I said, their job is to do right by their shareholders or their owners.

So you are a cost for the company and you're less of a cost if you're not asking for pay raises or getting equal pay. And that means their margins are better on you. So they're never going to come and say “oh, we should throw another $10,000 at you because that's your market rate.” f you're not standing up and earning it, that just means that their margins are greater. And that's what they're going to focus on.

It's not ill will towards you. It's just business. So we can’t just sit there and expect “if I do well, they'll come throw bonuses at me.” It doesn't work that way.

Minki: Right. If we sort of think in terms of personal finance, a very crude way of looking at it may be, each one of us are a line item and it's taken from the top line of the company. So the higher our line items get, their margins get lower. And it's sort of simple math rather than emotions in play.

Allegra: Exactly. But there are a lot of emotions in play because people are emotional about their work, and that's no surprise. You know in our careers, we spend half of our lives working. I mean in a New York work week, people are at their job more than they are at home (if you're not counting sleep seemingly). So I get it that people get very emotional about their work. But they're trying to keep margins intact and if you’re coming in at a low price and don't ask for a raise, you're only perpetuating this. So that's why we have to make sure we know our numbers and we earn our full value.

And there are great ways nowadays to figure out how much you should be earning because I've had to do it. I've had to get a correction. I got a $25,000 raise in one fell swoop and that's actually how I started doing this. It’s a big number and it sounds great but it means I was severely underpaid before that.

Minki: What was that experience like?

Allegra: I was working at a startup. Well, not really a startup because it was post-acquisition, but we ran it like a startup so they were really trying to keep all of their costs down. So they managed to hire some great women for really cheap and it was all a bet for everyone at first. But we really turned it into an international, successful company.

When I came in, they didn't even really have a sales offer for what I was there to sell. So I created that, I sold that. I did really well, I knew what I was doing really well. I was earning the company a bunch of money but I wasn't making very much money, and I'm living in New York City. So when I started to look around and see what sales people who are earning as much as me for their significant companies were taking home in terms of base salary, I was way off.

So you can go to Glassdoor, PayScale, or LinkedIn and type in your job position. And I wouldn’t say just yours. Let's say you're an associate creative director. Also type in senior art director. Get a bunch of similar, other labels that you could have and try to pinpoint your level of experience and your career and get the range of salary that is being paid at both a national average and your local average. When you look at that range, if you're outside of it, it's time to have a conversation about getting you inside of it. To be quite frank, with anyone that I work with, I always encourage them to shoot for the top of the range. There's a few things that need to be done before you have this salary adjustment conversation such as a self-assessment that I can talk about later.

But I have incredible clients who come to me that I help. And they're really good at their jobs, and they know it. That's why they want to be well within their range. But I'm going to encourage them to shoot for the top of that range because, why not? Because negotiation is always just that, it's negotiation. It's a starting point. If both parties wanted the same thing, and you told them you wanted a $25,000 raise and they wanted to give you one, it’d be a lot easier. It's not that easy.

Minki: So say we educate ourselves from these resources that you just mentioned. And we're about to go in for the negotiation. But, like you said before, emotions do play a big role in how we not only relate to money in our salaries but to ourselves. And I’ve seen a lot of women start having, preemptively, these self-negating thoughts. What are some top excuses you've heard?

Allegra: It's so funny because I always give my sales pitch that you're in sales. You sold yourself into this job. You sell your friends on what to do this weekend.

Minki: You’re an advocate and a sales person for everyone but yourself.

Allegra: Correct. And then the worst thing happens where they actually talk themselves out of trying to ask for more money. It's amazing. I mean this is probably just a personal thing but I do see it a lot in women. We really can talk ourselves out of anything.

So, especially if someone hasn't asked for a raise. Let's say they got into a job, they've been there for four years, and they're maybe getting those annual bonuses of 2-3%, which heads up everyone! That's inflation. So you're really not making more money. They’re keeping you at the same level.

And I work with them and they're like, “Yeah. I know I need to ask.” Then they start talking themselves out of it. A lot of the excuses are in the company's favor. “I don't want to rock the boat. We just lost a client. I don't think we're doing as well as you know we once were. I know how much the company is bringing in and they can't really afford to do this.” So many excuses. It's amazing.

But people! Companies have to spend money and make money. So if they don't have it, they're going to have to go out and get it because people shouldn't be working for them that aren’t earning their full value potential. That's really my main thesis. But if you are one of those people, you can't be worried about their bottom line. If they can't pay you more, all it is a proof that you need to be working somewhere else. And that's sometimes the exercise here, right? That you ask. They say “no” because they haven't given you a raise in a while. They don't expect that you're going to ever ask. And when you do ask, you know they haven't prepared for that increase or line item. And so if they say “no,” all that does is prove that they're not willing to pay you your full value. Why should you be working for a discount rate? Especially if you already have been working for them for a few years. Your eyes are open, you're enlightened and it's time to move on. And sometimes that happens. So, to answer your question, there are a lot of excuses but most of them are in the company's favor.

Minki: In the company’s favor - which doesn't seem to make sense but it makes sense at the same time! So you've educated yourself. You're pumped up it and you put value and the empowerment back in your hands. You're about to walk into your boss's room. What's your advice on how to actually start broaching that subject?

Allegra: Well a few things. Before I had said you need to make sure you're ready before you ask for a raise. And the way you can do that is by asking yourself a few questions.

#1: Have you been at your job for a reasonable amount of time?
I would determine that in a broad sense as to be a year or more. I get very specific with clients but in a general sense, you need to have been there a year.

#2: Have you taken on new responsibilities since you've been hired?
What you really need to understand is, have you been exceeding expectations rather than just meeting them?

So there has to be a self-evaluation. Have I been here long enough? Does it make sense for me to ask? If the answer to both of those are “yes,” then we do the pumping up. And then for the meeting, the meeting itself is really important in how you time it and how you make the situation go down.

So you’ll hear in a lot of life cases that timing is everything. Waiting until a performance review to ask for a salary adjustment may be too late. By that time, your boss has probably already decided what raises will be doled out to the team. For example, if you're one of those people who is not asking for raises, they probably aren't setting aside extra money for you. They're just doing the 3%. They might know that Joe comes in every year and is like “I'm this much further, I want to be here within 18 months. Let's get me there. What can we talk about in terms of bonus or adjusted salary?” And that person might be getting a significant raise year over year but you don't now.

If you wait till bonus season, they've already decided who's getting what. So you need to be aware of when that is and you need to get a meeting with your boss three to four months in advance. I don't want to deter people from asking if they don't have the opportunity to do three or four months in advance. I'm just telling you that's going to be the most optimal timing. That's when it's in your favor because budgets haven't been confirmed or allocate yet.

And then, you also need to make sure that you set that meeting with the right person. You may have a manager who you're close with but they may not ultimately be a decision maker. So there's a bigger boss that you could talk to. You have to make sure it's not going to negatively hinder your relationship. In a lot of cases people are absolutely able to and should speak to a decision maker that might be a little bit more top line if it's not going to be a problem. Because you may just talk to your manager about your daily tasks, etc., and they're feeding this decision maker. You can absolutely go and talk to your decision maker directly about compensation and that's OK. So again you have to evaluate what's going to work in your organizational structure. But I recommend that people talk to the most senior appropriate decision maker.

You should be talking with this person as often as possible anyways because it's always great to be getting visibility into what you're doing. It’s going to help them know that you're a solid worker and that you mean business when you come in to talk about compensation.

So when you set the meeting, you just say “can I have 30 minutes of your time on Wednesday?” But you don’t tell what it's about. You just set up an in-person meeting if possible. And then when you go into the meeting, that’s when you say “I'm here to have a compensation conversation with you.” You'll have rehearsed plenty before this, writing down what you want to say, practicing in front of the mirror, on video to yourself, or with a friend, so that you're super comfortable having this conversation

And the other thing you're going to do before you walk into that meeting is, you're going to think about who you're talking to and what motivates them. When preparing for a negotiation, you should get in the mindset of thinking about the situation from your opponent's perspective. What do they need to see or know to be able to give you a raise? That's important.

For some people who really have a hard time of asking for a raise, I also tell them to focus on who in your life will this raise affect? Because sometimes women, these are my clients and these are the people that I'm dealing with, can't seem to do it for themselves. But they'll do it for their kids or they'll do it for their significant other who's really been encouraging them to do it. To think about how happy they're going to be when you're happier because you're getting paid your full value.

Minki: That's an awesome strategy. Out of curiosity, why not mention during the request for a meeting that this meting will be about a raise?

Allegra: Because it gives them time to plan. Planning makes people prepared. So now they've got reasons or they can talk to your bosses about your performance and you don't want to jump the gun on that. You want to get to them and directly have the conversation yourself so that they're not poking around and making a decision beforehand.

The other thing is, if you have multiple bosses, try and get them in the room too. So I was working with a client who's a lawyer and she had three partners at her firm. And she only wanted to talk to the partner she was familiar and close with. And I said “no, we need to talk to all three.” She said, “well, one is on vacation so I can really only talk with two.” And I said, “well let's see if he’ll dial in or let's wait till he's back. You waited this long.” Because if the meeting happens and you're talking to two people and there's a third outside of the room, it's really easy for them to say “well, the third person said “no.” What can we do? Our hands are clean.”

So it's just strategy. It's just being cognizant of who to talk to what's going to motivate them. And then preparing. So that's why when you set the meeting, they don't know what it's about because this way, you get to be the most prepared one.

Minki: Super advice. I really like the strategy of once you get into the meeting room, or actually right before you get into the meeting room, the things that you need to do. But you also mentioned something really interesting about making sure that both your team, and especially your bosses, know that you are going beyond expectations or what's your value added to the company. That goes back to what we were talking about earlier in that, a lot of us expect if we keep our heads down and do our work right, we will get recognized, some day, one day. Because, for women especially, it’s sort of ingrained you don't want to be arrogant.

Allegra: Yeah, we’re not braggers like guys are. But we should be. There's nothing wrong with bragging because bragging is only self-advocating and saying “look at what I had a hand in and now it's come to fruition.” You should be proud of your work. You should talk about it with your boss, your team, and you should absolutely tie your name to whatever that was your responsibility and your effort. So I would say start bragging just as a memo to everyone listening. If people think you're arrogant, then they’re just insecure. Because if you did what you're bragging about, that’s just fact.

Minki: Right. So how should that conversation play out? Should that be, every time you see your boss over at the water cooler? Or should you also set a meeting for that and say, “hey, this is what I've accomplished in this amount of time”?

Allegra: Yeah, if you don't have regular check-ins with your boss, definitely ask to have those because that could mean they have no visibility into what you're doing or they're expecting a manager to bring top down visibility and they may look at what the group's doing but not know what you're responsible for. So just say, “can I have 50 minutes to talk to you about my performance?” And you can always say in that meeting, “I'd love to do this work more often. Could we make this a regular thing? What would be convenient for you? Every quarter or every other month?” If they don't have time for that much face time, then to send it in an email. Say, “I just wanted to reach out and make sure that you're aware of some of the things I’ve been working on recently. It’d be great to get some in person time with you. But if not, I just wanted to give you a quick rundown of what I've been up to since I since you hired me.”

Minki: That's great. So that's for both your direct boss but also the potential decision maker?

Allegra: That's more likely for your direct boss. The decision maker, you need to just feel that out whether it's more appropriate to stop them and talk to them in the hallway. I would say, the most senior person in your organization that you can make yourself known to, the better.

At my last company, it was based in London with maybe 60 people there and there was a small office in New York, but there was no senior management in New York. So whenever the CEO would come in from London, I made darn sure that I was greeting him, talking to him, or the CFO, I was I was giving him numbers. I would say, “oh, I just closed a $25,000 deal yesterday. You'd be interested to know it's X person and that might be a good resource.”

You want to be more aware of how what you're doing affects the company so that you can have these conversations because they're only going to respect you and think “wow, they really are doing a lot for our organization!” And that sticks with them. So you always want to give yourself as much exposure as possible.

You just have to decipher what's the appropriate way to do it because it might be a little odd if you're suddenly e-mailing your manager, your manager's manager. You need to build relationships. It can't come out of the blue. So start with talking and say, “would it be helpful for you if I gave you a monthly update of what our team is working on?”

Add value. Always reframe it in your mind to “how can I add value?

Minki: Awesome. Always see it from the other end’s perspective.  

So when you actually go into the meeting, what should you be practicing on? Should we try to bring in as much numbers to back up that you've been adding value? Also, a follow up question, for some positions, it's really hard to quantify the value added in the work that you’ve been doing. What would be your advice on that?

Allegra: That it doesn't matter. Obviously with sales, you've got more numbers to show. But at the end of the day, what we're talking about here, is your market rate. You need to stay focused on the fact that you're under market rate and you need to be within market value.

So that's where the conversation needs to stay focused. What is the market paying people like you? You need to make sure that you're refocusing the conversation no matter where it goes back to that metric.

Minki: Ah! So this meeting isn’t the place to brain dump all the value added that you've done for the company? You should have done that prior to going to that meeting. And in this meeting, it's focused on “let's talk about money”?

Allegra: Yeah. This is a compensation meeting. The assessment was, are they aware of my value add? And you know before you walk into that meeting.

Of course you can self promote during this meeting. But you're not going in to say, “I've done A, B and C. I want more money.” Because they're going to say, “well that's your job.” So you need to go in there and talk about, “I want to have a conversation about compensation because I'm not earning the correct market value for the role that I'm really participating in here. So I want to have an honest dialogue with you about what it's going to take to get me there and how we can adjust that.”

So really, when you go into the meeting, I would say the most important thing to remember is to walk in with confidence and positivity. The way you enter a room can dictate how the rest of that interaction will go. So head held high. Smile when you enter. Starting things off with a positive vibe is very important no matter how small it is because you need to stay not pushy but focused throughout this meeting. And negotiation can be a little bit scary. We know that. So we're going to move past it and we're going to keep the conversation positive.

So you can kick off with something like, “I really enjoy working here. And my project is very challenging. You know in the last year, I feel that my scope of work has expanded quite a bit. I believe my roles and responsibilities and contributions have risen to account for that. And I'd like to discuss the opportunity of raising my compensation” or “I would like to address my compensation package in this meeting today.” You get positive and you get right to it.

And then, during this conversation, something important to remember is that, we've discovered the range but you're not using the range in the meeting. Now you need to drop the anchor which means you need to put your number on the table.

It’s the most important part of the negotiation since it's what the rest of the conversation is going to be based off of. And this is why I'm saying if it's too low you'll end up with a lower final offer than you want. So you should mention the number first, so that you're in control of anchor, and ask for more than you want.

Also, side note, psychology tells us that your bargaining partner will feel like he or she is getting a better deal in the negotiation if they negotiate you down from your original ask. So don't fear about asking for too much. The worst that can happen if you give a high number is that they counter you with a lower number. But that’s the point of negotiations. So it's OK to go high for them to negotiate down to something that you're still very comfortable with.

Minki: So say that you’re below market and you find out the range for your position. But you never asked for a raise ever. Do you still go for the top of the range?

Allegra: Yes, I think you should. And I understand why that's scary. But I just told you guys that I negotiated $25,000 salary increase in one fell swoop. So what I'm really telling you is, I asked for even more than that. But it's still a big number. It’s a shocking number for people to think, “well they're not going to give me that much.” But you don't know unless you try it. I love the Wayne Gretzky quote:

Image: http://quoteaddicts.com/i/210583

Image: http://quoteaddicts.com/i/210583

You don't want to have psyched yourself up. You've done all this preparation, research, have the meeting, and then clam up and drop a number too low that gets negotiated down from that. Because then you're going to know you could have done it and gotten more if you just stuck to your guns.

Yes, it's scary. It's not the end of the world. It's a 20 minute meeting and then likely a few follow ups, maybe one or two. And the more uncomfortable you are, the more you get through it, all you're doing is developing and flexing this negotiation muscle. I love to say I've created little monsters because the women that I've worked with, this doesn't just help them in this job. This helps them in any future negotiation. Once you have this belief that you deserve the most you can get, you're going to always feel that way. And so now, I have people who got into the top of their range at one job and they're going to another job and exceeding that range. They are now always going to advocate for themselves. So that trajectory of a woman needing 11 years longer to make what a man has made, you are shortening that time and possibly obliterating it, if you're suddenly making fair market rate or more! Why not more?

Minki: Why not more? So if the employer comes up with a counter offer, how would you judge if that's acceptable?

Allegra: You need to know your walkaway number. For example, if the range is: $60-75k. You're making $55k and you want to be making at least $65k. If they come back and give you something within the range, that's not terrible. You're still getting $5,000 increase. It wasn't what you wanted. We asked for more hoping to get you there. But it does mean that you can go and look for a job somewhere else well within that range. Likely just shoot right for the top because now you have all this information.

But if they're only going to pay you a little bit more, like another $2,500, that's not even going to get you into that range? And they're acting like “we're doing you a favor. It's outside of performance review time, etc.”? That's why I say have your walkaway number. Because do you want to consistently be paid under your market value? Probably not.

There's a great chart that shows two people both starting out at around $80,000. Over a 15 year period, one person stays at the same company and another person changes jobs every two years. That person, 15 years later, is earning almost $100,000 more. Too many people try and stay loyal to a company when they need to stay more loyal to themselves. It's not a win if they're only going to pay you a little bit more and they're still not getting you within the fair market value. If you learned your role inside and out and still aren’t making fair market value, then you should switch jobs.

Image: Forbes "Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

Image: Forbes "Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

Switching jobs isn't a bad thing. They try and make it as a bad thing but that's a yesteryear thing. That's our parents’ situation when they had stable 401ks and well-paying jobs, etc. For us, you're learning new skills and you can go and take those skills and require more value exchanged for them every few years because it only takes you so long to get good at a job. People who are just staying at the same job are probably not working at optimum capacity anyway because they're bored, they've been there, they know what to do. They're just slovenly staying. That's not going to challenge you to grow and certainly not going to help you earn more. So I'm a big fan of switching jobs pretty frequently.

Also, you hear tons of stories. For example, I work at the Estee Lauder companies at the beginning of my career. People weren't making that much money but we'd hire someone in and they'd be making way more money. So people would leave, go to L'Oreal for 18 months, and come back two titles higher and a huge pay higher. But the people who are too scared to jump ship and come back, they were getting paid inconsequentially less. We're in charge of our career path and fully empowered to do it.

So what I hope listeners take away from this today is, do your research, know your numbers, and know your walk away value, because you could be a lot happier earning what you deserved to make at a company that pays you. It proves just in a compensation way that they value you before you even get the additional colleague experiences. That's another argument I get, “well, I don't want to have to leave because I really like my colleagues.” I don't care if you like your colleagues! That means they are now your friends and you should hang out with them at brunch on Sunday. But it doesn't mean you should get paid less for the next 5-10 years because you like your colleagues.

I mean there are a ton of excuses but I think that we have to challenge ourselves to grow. That's what makes life better anyway. It's the same thing with negotiations. It's not comfortable. Maybe you haven't done it or maybe you've done it once and you didn't do it well. Well now, you can try again. The more you try, the more you're flexing this muscle. You're going to be really strong in your negotiation ability. So yeah.

Minki: Don't live by other people's standards or your company’s standards. Live by your standards.

Allegra: Exactly.

Minki: So say you succeeded in negotiating and/or you're already in the market range. Should you do it again? And if, so how often?

Allegra: I tell people to put in a calendar alert every nine months. Something could have changed within your organization, they gave you a lot more responsibility, etc. This happens all the time. People end up taking on other people's jobs and they're more interested in a title change than a salary bump. I mean a title is a title. Salary is what's actually going to help you achieve financial freedom so that’s a lot more valuable. And again, it means you know that you're earning your full value and that's a much better place to be in your company anyway.

Also, once you get the reputation from them that you're going to ask for a raise, there's the respect that comes from it too. They know they can throw you stuff, and you're going to ask for more money, but they can throw you stuff because it's a trade that's happening. Responsibility for additional compensation.

So yeah, I tell people every nine months put a reminder on your calendar. Because every nine months, you need to self-evaluate, company evaluate, and see what more you could be earning. Recheck your numbers. Make sure you're still in the range. If you've got into the range, now let's shoot for the top of the range. What needs to be done?

Because in that meeting, you're prioritizing your request which is the salary conversation, but you can figure out what needs to be done to get you to the next level. Doesn't even have to be in that meeting. With your managers or those people you are checking in with now, consistently think “what else can I help with? What else can be taken over?” And then you can bring that up.

Minki: And that may be true even once you’ve reach the top of the range?

Allegra: Top of the range it's harder because now it's likely you should get into another company. You can try it.

Here's something I always tell people. I have people who are fed up with their company, or they just feel they’ve been there long enough, they want a change, whatever the reason is - if they haven't gotten a pay increase in the last 12 months, I really, strongly encourage them to try and get one before they leave. People are like, “that's counterintuitive. I'm leaving so why would I ask for more money?” Practice. Here is a perfect situation to practice. You've got nothing to lose and they're not going to lose either. They’re not going to have to pay you it or they’re going to pay you for three months. That’s not the point.

Or maybe, a lot of times people who aren’t asking were told “no” once before and don’t want to go through it, they’d rather just start over. But they might not get a “no” the second time. You really have nothing left to lose and you're just flexing that muscle. So, try that first.

Minki: I also really like what you mentioned how asking for money can actually be seen as a sign of you standing up for yourself.

Allegra: For sure. Employers respect it. They want to know who means business. Because if you're asking more for you, that means that you put value on yourself in that relationship, and it means you're going to be that way with clients too.

Minki: Absolutely. So there's obviously a lot that we covered and a lot more that I’d always love to learn from you. But also for our members who may have a few more specific questions, is there a way to get in touch with you?

Allegra: Yeah. They can e-mail me at allegra@fingyms.com.

Minki: Amazing, as always! Thank you so much Allegra! This has been absolutely the best

Allegra: For sure. I love talking about it. I hope that I help a few more women so I can dwindle down that 100,000. Yeah, that's a big number. I realized after I put it in place.

If anyone does follow this advice and are able to get themselves a raise or if you have any more questions, do get in touch with me. I love to hear the stories. I'm actually thinking about starting my own podcast about the experiences of women doing salary negotiation and their tales.

Minki: Yeah! That would be amazing!

Allegra: Yeah. I feel like it'd be useful information. I love hearing people's stories.

Minki: Similar to what WINii does where we say, “share a struggle, shared a success.”

Minki: Awesome. Well thank you and hopefully we can have you back for some more Q&A.

Allegra: Happy to. Anytime.

Minki: Hope you enjoyed WINers! You can hear our previous episodes at www.wewinii.com/moneybites.

We’d also love to hear your feedbacks! For feedbacks or podcast suggestions, feel free to give us a ring at 516-WE-WINII (516-939-4644). We may use your voice on our next podcast! Our theme music was played and produced by Luna Lee.

Hope to see you next week!

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